Re: Walking in the door, trying not to show my apprehension...

by **Sunwolf007** Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:55 pm

I have heard of Campbell's work and do plan on reading it at some point. I would have to argue that there is more science in Star Wars than people give it credit for. All the epic scenes with the Lightsabers, Starfighters and blasters are all thanks to Science. Most of the stuff you see in the film is there because it represents some form of important technology. Hell, two of the main characters are droids and if that doesn't scream Sci Fi nothing does. As for many archetypes that is very true. This film series is a great example of those archetypes done in an original way.

by alice and the flowers Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:58 am

I'm just jumping on the bandwagon of welcoming you to say that - yay! Another Australian! Hello fellow Queenslander. Smile

by Sy23 Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:56 am

Alice, many thanks for the welcome - nice to see a lamington among the oreas, as it were Smile

- dare I say "Go Lions"???

Sunwolf, not disagreeing with your point exactly - there's certainly some scientific justification for the devices used in SW... my point is that it is a genuine mythic fantasy... if it were pure SF, the light sabres might have taken another form, for example.

by alice and the flowers Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:36 pm

Hahahaha, I love lamingtons. And fairy bread. The essentials of any kid's party. Well, with the mini-sausage rolls and the party pies.

I'm not much of an AFL fan, actually, nor do I really keep up with sports. Silly considering how we Aussies love it, huh?

by Sy23 Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:09 pm

And let's not get started on Queensland muddies, hey?

by Circe Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:12 pm

Hello there, Sy23. I would offer "welcome" as well, but as I've only just started here on the site myself it feels a bit strange. I would liken it to dinner at the house of a friend you've only just met and welcoming a guest at their door that the host has known a bit longer. Very strange.

To leap into the conversation, I must agree that Star Wars is a mythic fantasy in all the ways that matter. The elements considered scientific enough to demand the Sci Fi label, to me, seem more superficial than not. Reduce the scale from galactic conquest to single-world domination, the star ships become on-world transportation and habitation, light sabres become swords, androids are replaced by a race bred for service, the Force is "magic", etc. etc., these are all superficial elements that when changed don't actually impact the story or the Hero's Journey. It could have been written in a High Fantasy setting (and arguably it was already, but I mean here in the sense of these Sci Fi elements being replaced with non-scientific analogies) and not have lost any major events or key plot points. The same could not be said of, say, much of Asimov or Heinlein's work.

Fantasy more often has a feeling of dealing with humanity on an emotional level that requires the reader to connect with the protagonist in a way that allows them to empathize closely, to feel their plight and understand their motivations. Science Fiction, on the other hand, the Science Fiction that is considered exemplary of the genre, is a bit colder. It seems more to address humanity from an analytical standpoint, often conveying its messages to the reader in a philosophical way, demonstrating the extremes of human behavior in a way that could be considered either warning or promise. I suppose you could say Fantasy seeks to nurture a better world, while Science Fiction seeks to caution against creating a worse world.

It's my opinion that Star Wars took advantage more of the conventions of Fantasy than those of hard Science Fiction. It was a pretty, glamorous, and flashy display of technology, but it strikes me as having been more of the candy shell than the substance within.

by Sy23 Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:18 am

Circe, can't really argue with your premise - it's more or less a coherent version of what I was trying to say - but I do have to play devil's advocate, and point out that if one has to force any work into a genre, it's what the lay public believe it to be that will eventually determine what box it gets dumped in.

Ask most people the typical traits of a fantasy novel, and they'll mention swords, wizards, imaginary lands with no modern technology, dragons, elves, halflings, dwarves (or dwarfs), bows and arrows, a hopeless quest, etc...

Ask them to do the same for Science Fiction, and it's spaceships, high-tech futuristic culture, interplanetary aliens, laser-guns, teleportation, inter-universe travel, etc that you'll hear about.

And using this basic litmus-test, it's pretty obvious that hoi polloi will put the Star Wars series firmly in the SF camp - if it's black and flies, and caws, it's probably a crow.

Now, aficionados of Sf or fantasy (or both) know damn well that not all SF or fantasy works fit their respective stereotypes. Sure, "Lord of the Rings" and "I Robot" tow the line submissively enough, but where would you put H P Lovecraft's "At The Mountains Of Madness"? Or Cyrano De Bergerac's tale of a flight to the moon in a craft drawn by wild geese? Lucian's tall tales? J Vernon Shea's "Enchanter" series?

Fact is, if a writer needs a a particular concept, and it makes the story better, (s)he'll use it. Got a futuristic society with faster than light travel, and need a demon to put your hero in danger? Sure, go for it, like Chris Wooding did in the "Kitty Jeay" books. Got a high-fantasy world, and need a hero? Well, what did Poul Anderson do in "Three Hearts and Three Lions", eh? Or Mark Twain in "Connecticut Yankee?" And then there's Michael Moorcock, of course!!!

Feel like doing a society where elves and dwarves listen to ipods and ride motorbikes? Hey, if you can bring it off, your readers'll go along! But when they put your book in the stores, expect to find it in the "fantasy" section along with Tolkien and terry Brooks, not nuzzling up toHeinlein and Asimov. Smile

by **Sunwolf007** Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:27 pm

I agree with how Sy23 argued the point. I think that there are hard elements of Sci Fi but there is more of an element of fantasy. All I am saying is that there is more Sci Fi in Star Wars than most people give it credit.

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