FoG Rubric Feedback

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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Delve on Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:50 pm

The only problem I had originally was that it needed to be optional which I now understand was intentionally optional to begin with. However, I would like to opt out on the idea of the rank bar showing up on everyone's profiles.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Guest on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:21 pm

Delve wrote:The only problem I had originally was that it needed to be optional which I now understand was intentionally optional to begin with. However, I would like to opt out on the idea of the rank bar showing up on everyone's profiles.

I second that. I think the entire thing should be optional, including any marks made on profiles. Meaning no "tier 0". If you haven't done anything and don't plan on participating, I don't really think it's fair to point those people out as "accomplished 0", because that is less encouraging than the system should be. It's meant to reward people for doing well, not single out those who haven't completed anything yet as if they're somehow less. As Silvone pointed out, not everyone has the goals of completing a role-play; some are just here to enjoy the games and characters and that's fine. If there is any way to make such a "tier/ranking" system so that only people who complete role-plays and submit them for review get a "mark" or "badge" or "rank" or something, then I'd vote for that. Smile

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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Bird of Hermes on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:53 pm

The tier idea was just a suggestion someone made; it's not part of the rubric.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Guest on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:56 pm

Bird of Hermes wrote:The tier idea was just a suggestion someone made; it's not part of the rubric.
I know. But it's an idea that is being discussed and I believe both Delve and I were making suggestions based on the discussion of the idea. Not actually as if it was already a part of the thing.

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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Bird of Hermes on Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:58 pm

I just wanted to make sure everyone knew it wasn't part of the rubric. ^_^
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Gadreille on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:19 pm

What if you leave fog, and someone completes a role play you were once in? I would rather not have my work ripped apart post mortem (you all laugh, but hey, people die, and I'm on here for fun). I just want it known that I don't want any of my work, past present or future, a part of this. It was stated in the very first post that after someone submits a completed role play, it's opt out, not opt in. Sooo...I'm covering my bases by stating here that I would like all of my work opted out should that ever happen.

Edit: I belatedly realize this sounds like I'm dissing the idea. I'm not. I really don't care, it sounds fine. I just want to make sure my work doesn't end up here, unless sometime in the future I decide to start a role play with this rubric in mind.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Kalon Ordona II on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:48 pm

Don't literary works get ripped apart post mortem anyway? Hmm What if your for-fun writing is as good as most people's serious writing? I wouldn't mind the world (or, you know, FOG) knowing I was awesome even in casual mode (which you are). Very Happy I guess I can see where you're coming from, though. Serious critique might be unfair if the material was intended to be more relaxed. (Maybe we should make a list?)

I don't think it goes by person, however. The RP is critiqued as a whole. As I understand it, it reflects the collective/collaborative quality of the role-play, as opposed to a single person's writing, like the contests.

I have a question, Christoph. How does it work to critique only one person's posts in a role-play, if they still want critique after other people opt out? Will it just be feedback for them personally, type of thing? What if the story seems disjointed, seeing only one perspective?
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Gadreille on Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:51 pm

Thank you for understanding my concerns, far fetched as they may be Smile I would never submit any of my current writing toward something like this, and would not like my talent to be misrepresented because I write casually. It may be good in general, but it's not my great, and I don't want to be judged by it.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Delve on Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:03 pm

The badge idea is fine if its something people would put in their signature or something so long as its not something visible on everyone's profile in general. (There's already ghost rank bar thing anyway)

I totally feel the same way Ryona, the fact that this topic is in the announcement thread and the thread title is 'Official Fog Rubric' mislead me to believe other things like WTF! lol
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FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Gadreille on Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:16 pm

In terms of ranking, perhaps if it were an optional fill in box on your profile (not mini, but main one) where one could fill in their fog accomplishments (winning contests, finishing threads, etc).
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Fate Flyer on Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:53 pm

We have decided to move the feedback for the rubric to the feedback section to keep the main information clean.

The thing is, if a role-play is finished, the GM/creator will be contacted and asked if they would like their role-play critiqued. It will also be made clear that the GM must also contact each of the role-players involved, to ask them all if they are okay with having the RP reviewed. If everyone agrees, then they can move forward to have it reviewed. If someone does not want their writing critiqued, then all those who do must have it done privately, and the judge will exclude all the posts by the person who does not want to be reviewed. If not everyone involved can be contacted by the GM to ask if it is alright to have the RP reviewed, then it will be assumed they do not wish it to, and therefore they will automatically be excluded from the review.

Because of this, no one will ever, without their consent, be included in the critiquing of a role-play they are involved in, and there is no need for a list.

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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Gadreille on Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:58 pm

(Note: This will be ‘opt-out’ as opposed to ‘opt-in’, meaning that if a participant fails to respond one way or another within two weeks, permission will be assumed granted and the thread can then be reviewed as normal.)

It was stated otherwise, Fate. It says that if they can't get ahold of you it will be assumed that you grant permission.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Kathryn Lacey on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:13 pm

I think that means if they try and you just don't respond, permission is assumed. PM's are a way of getting ahold of someone. However, if you quit FoG - thus removing the chance to be PMed - and they can't get ahold of you another way, then it's assumed you're opting out.

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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Axiom Awaits on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:14 pm

Ten wrote:
Delve wrote:The only problem I had originally was that it needed to be optional which I now understand was intentionally optional to begin with. However, I would like to opt out on the idea of the rank bar showing up on everyone's profiles.

I second that. I think the entire thing should be optional, including any marks made on profiles. Meaning no "tier 0". If you haven't done anything and don't plan on participating, I don't really think it's fair to point those people out as "accomplished 0", because that is less encouraging than the system should be. It's meant to reward people for doing well, not single out those who haven't completed anything yet as if they're somehow less. As Silvone pointed out, not everyone has the goals of completing a role-play; some are just here to enjoy the games and characters and that's fine. If there is any way to make such a "tier/ranking" system so that only people who complete role-plays and submit them for review get a "mark" or "badge" or "rank" or something, then I'd vote for that. Smile
I agree with this.

I wont comment on the other stuff because it seems to be covered. I'll just reiterate that it will be optional. I don't really have an opinion on this becauseI don't participate in role-plays. I think it is a good idea, but at the same time I understand most of the points made otherwise.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Bird of Hermes on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm

I understand the concerns. I am glad everyone here is sharing their opinions. ^_^
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Gadreille on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:15 pm

Ah. Well if that indeed is how it is run, then I see no issues, carry on. However, perhaps that should be stated explicitly in the original announcement, for clarification.

Edit: that was responding to Kathryn Smile
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Kathryn Lacey on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:26 pm

I like the idea of that being explained in the actual rubric. I'll go edit that now if Christoph or someone else hasn't already gotten to it.

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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Gadreille on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:30 pm

Cool, thanks a bunch. That makes it much more clear that this is purely optional.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Blade Barrier on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:54 pm

I read everyone's responses, so let's hope I'm not saying anything that's already been covered. There are lots of walls of text in this thread : /

Before I begin, I'd just like to tell everyone who thinks that a competitive atmosphere will make people write better, you're mistaken. a competitive atmosphere can make people lose interest in things as well as spur them to try harder, more often the former. the best form of competition is by challenging yourself rather than comparing yourself to someone else. That's what several surveys that I don't have links to said anyway. It works for some and not others.


Now addressing the real point...


Firstly, even though the Rubric is something that we have to choose to opt into, I do feel that it could still pose as a threat to the forum and how it's members perceive each other. So, here are a few concerns of mine.

#1) It could become harder to join some RPs.

If people want to score higher in the rubric, they will try and make sure that they have the best writing talent working with them. They won't chance accepting entries from new RPers or people with sub-par writing skills. as a result, said newbs will leave FoG and tell their friends what a sewer it's become instead of how great and friendly everyone is.

#2 Empowers members that don't necessarily need it.

I think Christoph is a swell guy, as well as bird of can’t-remember-how-to-type-it, And although I’m not on the mod panel, I’m sure they do a decent job, and I couldn’t think of better people to replace them with anyway.

However, why are they the only ones that get to use the rubric? Birdy I haven’t seen very much of, and Christoph has “judged” works on other forums, which is just a nice way of saying he’s “an expert at giving his own opinion.” I’ve been writing since I could hold a pencil, role played on 4 different forums, and have had my REAL written works looked over by editors. (no publications though.) Heck, much like Christoph, I also have a topic to help lesser writers on their merry way, and it too has died of inactivity both from my own neglect and people not posting in it anymore. Why don’t I get to use the rubric? Do ANY of my achievements even make me more qualified to use the rubric than the rest of the mod staff, or even the regulars?

I say no

And what's this about the rubric forcing people to be more fair when they judge? the judge has 10 points he can play with if he hates your guts. you can have 10 people use the rubric and get 10 different results!

#3) Ego up!

I think it’s nice to reward people who try hard with a little something extra like a digital badge or having their work permanently displayed on the forum, but I also think that it’s possible to pat someone on the back too hard. I can see people’s rubric score easily becoming the next “My internet wang is 5 points higher than yours, so I’m a better writer and I don’t have to listen to your critique, especially since your rp scored low in that section.” It’s just like page views on deviant art, posts on most forums, or gamer score on Xbox live. If people think they’re slightly better than you at something, some people will let you know about it, regardless of how little you care.

And of course, you also have people pointing the finger when an RP’s score comes out below everyone’s predictions.

#4) It’s worthless.

Role playing is a collaborative effort. It’s the sum of it’s parts, which are the participants. If you judge the RP as a whole, you’re merely putting a value on their synergy and not each writer’s skill.

Giving everything a numbered value doesn’t change people’s opinions. I tried using the rubric on the Caligo contest entries, and my conclusion was the same.



Final verdict:

I’m well aware that the Rubric isn’t going to be shot down by any post that’s made in here, but I just had to present my concerns. Personally, I’d rather someone look over my work and write a detailed review highlighting what they liked and didn’t like instead of making a table of numbers. Using the rubic in contests seems more like a way to compensate for the community’s inability to read 10 stories that are 3K-5K words in length and then write a detailed review about each one. personally, I don't belittle anyone who doesn't have that kind of time.

In the end, the rubric just feels very unsatisfying to me.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Bird of Hermes on Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:04 pm

Splitting the thread like that makes it look like I created the thread. XD

Your concerns are valid. Personally, I like the rubric more for judging contests. I wouldn't want one of my role-plays to be judged, but I am sure others would like the feedback.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by The Ghost Writer on Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:19 am

You bring up a few valid points, Blade. I'll be happy to address them. Smile

#1) It could become harder to join some RPs.

Indeed, it will be harder to join RPs where the authors are wanting to achieve a high rating, but this effect won't be very noticeable. For the time being, there are very few role play authors that are considering using the rubric for the stories they are currently constructing. I have a feeling that this trend will continue until FoG grows to hold a greater number of active role players with more thriving stories. If it does to come the point where role plays will become more difficult to join, then I honestly have to say that that's tough luck. FoG is an advanced role playing community. Members should be aware of this upon registration. If their writing skills are not up to par to join a role play, then they need to take the initiative to better themselves; we will never ask our members to sacrifice the quality of their story for the sake of a few whiners.

#2 Empowers members that don't necessarily need it.

I don't think the title of your second concern quite matched the content, so just stick to addressing the content. For starters, Bird of Hermes and Christoph both volunteered to be the judges. The rest of the staff didn't feel they would be up to it for the time being. If you'd like to prove a point and shoot for a spot on the judging panel then I encourage you to talk to Christoph. It was his idea, and his rubric. Therefore, it's his call.

As far as the rubric forcing people to be more "fair" when they judge: this was one the concerns that I brought up when we were first discussing this in the moderation forum. I voiced the concern that if we were to have a rubric of low numbers to high numbers, then we actually consider each number when awarding a rating. I've seen too many competitions that have a, let's say, 5 star maximum rating, but the judges weren't allowed to award anything below 3 stars for the sake not hurting anyone's feelings. This is utter bull shit in my opinion. If the entry sucked balls, then it sucked proverbial balls.

#3) Ego up!

This is a concern that seems to be brought up with just about any idea that we come up with that includes some sort of award system. Whether that be a reputation system for the forum, an experience meter, or even those badges you mentioned. Someone is going to complain about this. Quite frankly, I think we just need to suck it up and try it out first before we keep jumping to the conclusion that this will be FoG's downfall.

#4) It’s worthless.

Before the rubric can be used, all acting participants of the role play must come to the consensus that a rating on their collaborative work would be acceptable. Therefore, it's the group that's using it that will determine whether or not it's "worthless", not an individual observer.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Christoph on Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:42 am

Thank you for taking the time to present some questions and concerns, Blade. I know Ghost gave some answers already, but I figured I'd provide my own angle on it as well.

Blade Barrier wrote:Before I begin, I'd just like to tell everyone who thinks that a competitive atmosphere will make people write better, you're mistaken. a competitive atmosphere can make people lose interest in things as well as spur them to try harder, more often the former. the best form of competition is by challenging yourself rather than comparing yourself to someone else. That's what several surveys that I don't have links to said anyway. It works for some and not others.
Different people respond differently to competition. This system is designed to provide healthy competition for those who want it while not shoving it in the face of those who don't. I have personally seen many, many writers prosper in competition and grow and improve by leaps and bounds. I have seen the spirit of competition invigorate sites, rather than cause this loss of interest that you fear.
#1) It could become harder to join some RPs.

If people want to score higher in the rubric, they will try and make sure that they have the best writing talent working with them. They won't chance accepting entries from new RPers or people with sub-par writing skills. as a result, said newbs will leave FoG and tell their friends what a sewer it's become instead of how great and friendly everyone is.
A few things, here. First, I think our members deserve far more credit than that. FoG enjoys a great group of friendly, mature, and helpful members. I highly doubt that we'll see any wide-spread shunning of newer or "sub-par" writers. Secondly, we all know that the rubric is optional. We also know that not every RP needs to be reviewed, nor SHOULD every thread receive a review. Some simply aren't designed for it. My Warhammer 40k RP is a great example. It has a great group of members working toward a good story and I'm personally having a blast with it. However, I would never want the RP reviewed by this rubric. It's just not geared toward that end. In short, this rubric does the opposite of what you fear; it adds options for new members rather than removing options. FoG is one of the most welcoming Roleplaying forums that I've ever seen, so I think new members would respond to that warmth rather than feel intimidated or unwelcome, and grow and prosper with the community.
#2 Empowers members that don't necessarily need it.

I think Christoph is a swell guy, as well as bird of can’t-remember-how-to-type-it, And although I’m not on the mod panel, I’m sure they do a decent job, and I couldn’t think of better people to replace them with anyway.

However, why are they the only ones that get to use the rubric? Birdy I haven’t seen very much of, and Christoph has “judged” works on other forums, which is just a nice way of saying he’s “an expert at giving his own opinion.” I’ve been writing since I could hold a pencil, role played on 4 different forums, and have had my REAL written works looked over by editors. (no publications though.) Heck, much like Christoph, I also have a topic to help lesser writers on their merry way, and it too has died of inactivity both from my own neglect and people not posting in it anymore. Why don’t I get to use the rubric? Do ANY of my achievements even make me more qualified to use the rubric than the rest of the mod staff, or even the regulars?
First, this rubric is a tool, and reviewing with it requires far more than simply "giving your own opinion." It's a process of in-depth analysis and constructive criticism. I know for me, personally, if I just wanted to get some random comments or a "good story", I'd have my dad read my work. Razz This is a cut above that.

Second, I recognize your concern, but you're grasping at implications that don't exist. Nobody is claiming superiority over anyone else. We're not professional editors and we don't claim to be -- that's one of the reasons we have the rubric. It is a tool to help us give better reviews. This isn't some elite club. I put the rubric together and Bird volunteered to help. That's all. We may add more reviewers down the road as demand increases.
And what's this about the rubric forcing people to be more fair when they judge? the judge has 10 points he can play with if he hates your guts. you can have 10 people use the rubric and get 10 different results!

You bring up an interesting point: the Judge's Choice category has a troublesome name rife with potential misunderstanding. The category's primary purpose is to catch anything potentially missed by the other nine categories. Rest assured that it isn't a popularity category nor a "who does the judge like better?" category.
#3) Ego up!

I think it’s nice to reward people who try hard with a little something extra like a digital badge or having their work permanently displayed on the forum, but I also think that it’s possible to pat someone on the back too hard. I can see people’s rubric score easily becoming the next “My internet wang is 5 points higher than yours, so I’m a better writer and I don’t have to listen to your critique, especially since your rp scored low in that section.” It’s just like page views on deviant art, posts on most forums, or gamer score on Xbox live. If people think they’re slightly better than you at something, some people will let you know about it, regardless of how little you care.

And of course, you also have people pointing the finger when an RP’s score comes out below everyone’s predictions.
Like I said earlier, I have more faith in the maturity of FoG members. Besides, if somebody really wanted wave around an e-peen, they wouldn't need this rubric system to do so. If somebody was of the persuasion to ignore advice from other members, then they would do so regardless of scores (the wise realize that even the best have room to learn). That said, I don't see anything wrong with taking a little pride in a job well done.
#4) It’s worthless.

Role playing is a collaborative effort. It’s the sum of it’s parts, which are the participants. If you judge the RP as a whole, you’re merely putting a value on their synergy and not each writer’s skill.

Giving everything a numbered value doesn’t change people’s opinions. I tried using the rubric on the Caligo contest entries, and my conclusion was the same.
A review will be more than merely a string of numbers. The Halloween contest should provide a good example. Expect detailed analysis for each category and constructive criticism in addition to numbers. Numerical ratings are nothing new, after all (though sometimes we see them as letters or stars instead). Numbers combined with detailed analysis and suggestions will provide clearer feedback. For collaborative threads, both individual efforts AND the synergy between the writers would come into play and receive due review.

All I can say now is to just wait and see, or maybe go nuts and give it a try. If you find it so distasteful, it's okay not to use it. Its presence won't inhibit your enjoyment of the site, I promise. Lol. The goal is to give those who like the idea a new feature to enjoy and benefit from, without forcing it on those who don't like it. It is what it is, and I can only hope that others enjoy and benefit from it. Give it a try! You might surprise yourself. If not, we can still be friends. Wink
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Blade Barrier on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:11 pm

I told you already I think you're a swell guy Christoph. You may not be as hansome as me, but your just too cute to harbor any feelings of hate against.

*wink*

I suppose the short version of my post is "just because you're not being judged doesn't mean that the Rubric won't affect you", because it most certainly will.

Say what you like about the FoG community, but it's growing, and the bigger it gets, the more unwieldy it's user base becomes. Even if members remain mature for the most part, I can tell you that behind their monitors, some people are going to play the point game.

I don't really see any harm coming from using it in contests (now hearing it's not a wall of numbers), and we haven't had any completed role plays here, so the Rubric will be warming up bench space for a while. There's no point in further debate until I see it in action. That I will agree with you on.
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Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

Post by Christoph on Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:29 am

On that note, the short version of my post was, "It's not as big a deal as it seems, so just dabble in a little in optimism and give it a try." Some folks may play the "points game", as you call it, and to be perfectly honest, that isn't necessarily a problem. There's nothing wrong with earning a little prestige with a high score and feeling good about it. That won't be an issue. After all, trolling and disrespect has never been acceptable behavior here, and the addition of this rubric won't change those standards of conduct. It's impossible to predict every possible eventuality, but I don't foresee any of the feared catastrophic challenges. We'll have to wait and see. You seem prepared to give the rubric system a chance, which is all we can ask of anyone.
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